Accepted [All Main Servers Suggestion] Large Fern back to 3 or 5, just not 10

In Game Name:

Jdawger​

What part of EcoCityCraft is this suggestion for:

VMR Server Suggestion (sorry, it was late and I’m used to making suggestions for Main)​

Short title for your suggestion:

Large Fern back to 3 or 5, just not 10​

What are you suggesting:

For booklet, require large ferns to have 3-5 for it to be deemed complete​

Why is this a good addition for EcoCityCraft?:

Look, before people instantly state "This was suggested a month ago" or "they can be obtained" etc., hear me out.

In the past, I suggested this change with tall grass included as well, but I feel like every time I suggest the change with tall grass too, people just -1 because tall grass is on the list. And while I agree the tall grass is easy to get ten of, large fern is not. Plus, large fern is not the same as tall grass, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Now, I am going to use the same probability data that the Minecraft wiki uses, as well as my experience elytra flying across tens of thousands of blocks for a couple VMR weeks.


First off, let's talk how to acquire them, and compare acquiring them versus tall grass. Large ferns can only be obtained in a taiga village, specifically the normal house (aka not one with an occupation attached), and the chance of these normal houses having a loot chest is a little less than 25% per house. These chests, in addition to biome rarity, already makes these items hard to get.
Now, let's talk the actual spawn rate of tall ferns in the chest itself. According to the wiki, on average, you can find a single large fern about 15% of the chests. With specifically normal taiga village house chest spawning, math shows that's about 90 taiga villages to find. Now, that is an average number. It could take less villages, or even more depending on luck.

To save time, tall grass I'll summarize. Tall grass spawns in one village type as well, roughly same physical chest spawning rate as taiga houses, although the item spawns slightly more (slightly less 50% if the time, or about 2 chests average before finding one). It'll take about half the amount of savannah villages to find 10 large grass items. Savannah villages also tend to spawn more normal houses compared to taiga villages due to the amount of space savannahs have compared to taigas.

With that data, it shows large ferns are harder to find than tall grass, especially considering that Taiga villages also spawn less than savannah villages due to certain parameters that villages need to spawn (with savannahs fitting more criteria than taigas, mostly due to how much flatter they can be with less trees spawning in the way).

To drive in the point that large ferns generate less than tall grass, this week I found a total of three taiga villages with the intention of looking for them, zero large ferns. Found one savannah village on accident (and looted to see how much tall grass I could find), found four tall grass. They clearly do not spawn the same.


Now the big question: are large ferns actually rare enough to warrant a change?

Obviously I think so, thus this suggestion, however, let's compare large fern spawning compared to another item that has been deemed "too hard to find:" The Notch Apple.

To complete a booklet, you need to find a total of six Notch Apples (three for banner patterns, and then three more). They can be found in a total of six locations (dungeon, bastion treasure room, ruined portal, woodland mansion, desert temple, mineshaft), each with different spawn rates. For this, I will mostly use dungeons, mineshafts, and desert temples as they are the most common places people find them. Dungeons and mineshafts can spawn in any overworld biome, and are quite common. With max render distance, there is a high chance that four or more dungeons are spawned within your view. Although a chance of finding one is ~3.5% chance in each dungeon chest and about 2% each minecart chest in mineshafts, with how common they are, you can find them all within a week if you try hard enough. For context, I found a total of 9 Notch Apples within three weeks of hardcore VMRing, and 3 of them were found on accident when I was mining or looking for ferns.

Large ferns are a different story, however. For weeks, I've been flying around the overworld specifically looking for Taiga Villages and Large Ferns. I found a total of two in about 5 total weeks of hardcore VMRing, and after finding dozens upon dozens of Taiga Villages. Not two within one day/week, two within 1/8 of a year. I understand others have collected ten--with some of them collecting those ten after large ferns were changed to ten--but we can't say for sure that they found all ten on their own (obviously more people looking for ferns for one booklet is going to make things faster, but we are assuming one person one booklet with the stats and suggestion); at this point, there are 6 people who collected everything for 1.17 or are close (and I know collected the large ferns), but I know for a fact at least half of them bought their ferns for ECD for the booklet promo.

This is not an item that takes a while to collect, like netherite blocks or wither skeleton skulls, it takes the luck of the draw to obtain and have a harder chance spawning as an obtainable object, like Notch Apples or even tridents.


Anyway,
TL;DR, they should be changed because they are harder to find compared to other items that are already set at 3 and are obtainable.

I suggested 3 initially as it is what other "hard to obtain obtainables" are, but I also suggest the change to be no more than 5 because, yes, someone can get lucky and get them fast if the loot table is right. 5 is a good number as well because it will ensure it will take multiple villages to complete.​

Other information:

Thank you for reading that wall of text of data and experiences to argue why this should be changed back.

I do encourage people who have completed or are attempting to complete large ferns to comment, but I also encourage those who have collected ten ferns by buying them from others or collected them from /kit rare (when they were a part of it) to not immediately -1 them because "you collected them easily." This suggestion is about the current state of collecting them, and while buying them or having a majority of them from /kit rare is still collecting them, it really is not in terms of the data.​

Plugin or custom addition:

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One suggestion per form:

I Understand.​

 

As I never got a chance to comment on the responses from the last suggestion (which had tall grass added as well), I want to debunk those as it was denied due to "community feedback." There were only three on that thread:

"NO No Noooooooo i Strongly Disagree tall grass i find 2 to 4 when i find them in a village i can get all 10 of them in 2 hours fly around with an elytra works great."

-romper83273
​

This one called out tall grass and not tall ferns, so I don't need to say anything about it

"I understand that these may be a more difficult item to obtain, but that does not make them unobtainable. There are a fair few other items that are lootable only from chests (and chests that are much harder to find and to loot, at that) that are not on the unobtainables list. Tall grass/ferns can be done in a day to a few days with an elytra exploring around these biomes."

- CammyBunny
​

I want to believe this was stated with the intention that they were unobtainable, but playing devil's advocate (and the fact they were stated to be done within a day to a few days), let's say it's talking both (although I believe since they were grouped together, it might be more tall grass than fern). I also flew around biomes, going as far as 35k by 30k blocks each week, and it does not take a day or a few days. Getting an elytra can take a full day, and then after that, good luck finding a village. Maybe if those days are 8+ hours you can find enough in seven days if lucky enough, but realistically, I don't think that is correct. Those I've talked to are having a hard time doing the same method anc coming short.

"They're sometimes hard to get depending on the world spawn, but they're not insanely hard. I personally think they're fine being on the 'not easy' list of things to get, VMR is known to be hard."

- blazwura97​

I get what you are saying, but at the same time, Notch Apples, Mojang Banner Patterns, and Tridents were changed to 3 [those are the three I can remember. I think there are more]. Hard for booklet is good, I agree. I just did netherite blocks, and those were very hard, but in an almost fun and challenging way. Finding large ferns are more of a frustrating challenge due to world generation--as you said--getting the most efficient traveling way(s) (which take at least a day of prep), and their chance of actually generating. Those "harder to obtain obtainables" I listed are, in my opinion as well as what the stats state, easier to obtain, yet are at three. I did change my initial though of three to be five, so they should still be challenging, but not as challenging.



Not calling any of y'all out. I just never got a chance to comment before it was denied, so I wanted to address those here in hope to have this changed.

 

And to your point, some booklet can be easier. It takes 1099 items to complete at the moment and rising each update. This suggestion, if accepted, isn’t going to change a super hard item to complete to become an easy one. Large ferns are still going to be difficult to acquire if changed to five.

And changing it to five isn’t going to have an affect on booklet prestige as a whole. There are still a plethora of items that are significantly harder to obtain in VMR (trust me, I just completed someone’s booklet and collected said items). Large ferns are just the hardest item that relies 100% on loot tables in one specific chest in one specific village type. It mostly takes luck to acquire, and mostly luck in terms of world map.

 

Where does it say ferns? I literally copy/pasted the response from said suggestion