*Looks for suggestion*... I see nothing but criticism and opinions. Moving along.

 

I would love to answer this suggestion... but sadly I can't decipher what the suggestion is? Do you want harsher punishments or less harsh ones?

 

He wants harsher
And I wholeheartedly agree
I'll try to make a more detailed response tomorrow

 

Alright. Taking into consideration that it either wants harsher or lesser. Idc. I'll just throw my opinion out there.

NOTE: This is the opinion of myself and not the staff team.

I have always been one for thinking about things from a background that is generally... different from most when it comes to how we handle banned players. So, in order to thoroughly explain my opinion on this matter, I'm going to have to outline the different types of ways the justice system handles things. The four reasons the criminal justice handles criminals the way we do is theoretically for: deterrence, rehabilitation, incapacitation, and retribution. I feel all four of these terms easily apply to ECC.

Deterrence means we are using a person as an example and the punishment as a reason for the possible criminal to not commit the crime. Basically, human beings have a habit of thinking to themselves, "Does the punishment I might receive outweigh the reward." We sit there and consider risk versus reward. I have seen this work on ECC a few times. Generally speaking it only works when Andrew gets involved. When Andrew punishes some extremely harshly and publicly, I would argue that it, at least temporarily, knocks the wind out of would be rule breakers. That being said, Andrew can't be called in all the time and the ability to punish that the staff have available seems to be striking fear into no hearts. I have never in my last year heard a player hear about a possible punishment and say "Oh that sounds bad, I won't do that." No more often then not they just start thinking of ways around the issue. The fact is, that deference seems to be helping no one generally. Occasionally it helps, but only during extremely harsh moments on ECC.

Rehabilitation. Not sure how we would incorporate this exactly. Oh I know we've tried before. There are players out there who people have tried to help live a good honest life on ECC. I have yet to see it work. Further, I cannot think of a useful rehabilitation system to fix the people who are having serious issues.

Incapacitation. We do this. A lot. Essentially the goal is to take the criminal out of society. For us this means long temp bans or perma bans. It helps for the time that it lasts. That person can no longer harm ECC. Yet, we can't keep the temp banned players banned forever. Like 90% or more players would be gone from ECC. At the same time, people don't seem to always change their ways. It is a temporary thing that is good while it lasts. Does that mean we should increase temp bans? Not necessarily. That doesn't always go well.

The final reason why the criminal justice system punishes a criminal, retribution. Retribution makes the victim feel better. However, on ECC I don't feel thats always the case. I feel like the only thing that makes the victims feel better is getting their stuff/money back that they lost. Because lets be serious, most of our crimes are money related.

So how does this effect ECC? Well those are why we punish people. We always, always are discussing punishment. This is what this thread is about in fact. Yet, I propose a different route. The fact is deterrence barely stops real world crime, rehabilitation doesn't always work, incapacitation isn't forever, and retribution is bitter sweet. So, the real question. How do we PREVENT crime. Not punish it. Prevent it. So, I ask everyone who reads this to answer this question: How do we prevent crimes on ECC? Can we?



PS: Atm I'm trying to research crime prevention methods because I am not even sure how to answer my question.

 

Okay before I comment, I must say don't mess with revan :x This is really well stated, revan.
Any who, I personally do not think that we can prevent crimes from happening other than doing as much as you can to insure that you are making contracts, and making deals with trusted users. We are all humans, and some people will scam and break the rules. That is why they get banned, however some bans I have seen seem fairly light for what the person did.

 

I can agree that there are times where it feels like the person was given a slap on the wrist and other times like we are giving someone life in prison for no reason. I have been thinking to myself, and well researching. Apparently even RL Police/Criminal Justice majors have decided that the best way to prevent crime is to educate the possible victims. As well as to help people learn right from wrong before they get too old to be taught that.

Now I propose an explanation for our seemingly insanely high crime rate. This is the internet. I know this seems like a silly response but evidently there are people out there who believe the internet = a place to lie/cheat etc. ECC =/= the internet in my eyes. We are better then this. I honestly feel like our community is a lot better and more well behaved then the majority of the internet. That being said, we still have people who want to treat this just like any other forum board. Where you can yell at each other, take from each other, etc. Its not easy to impose morals onto a community, especially one that is full of such young people. Scare tactics don't generally work and my only idea well... is against the rules generally speaking: Public shaming. I don't want to sound like I'm advocating for it, but it has seriously been shown to lower problems amongst kids. Kids are easily pressured by their peers. If their actions had more negative effects they may be less likely to do them. HOWEVER, I don't think that would jive too terribly well with our rules and regulations.

 

This is slightly off topic, but with that being said about kids learning how to be a good person before it's too late, ECC is a place for learning in many different ways. It could even teach kids how to be better people on the internet. Like you said about this is the internet; that is true. It takes a community to raise a child, and ECC is a community. If we work together we could influence so many people's lives in a positive way. It makes no sense why people think this is a good place to be jerks and to bully kids, the effect is the same, if not worse.
All-in-all we should make the general public more aware of what could happen if they don't make a contract. It's okay to ask questions. Protect yourself because others can only help a limited amount.

 

The only think I could think of, is strike the fear of god into their minds. Tell them, if you do this (scamming for example) you WILL be perma-banned. Again, this has its downfalls. 1) What if someone screws up, loses internet, computer breaks down, etc. Something out of their control can ruin someone's ECC life, and who knows if they're telling the truth or not? 2) If some troll figured this out, what would stop him/her from going around scamming who he can, when he can, as much as he can, then getting banned? So many people would be screwed. Truth is, I don't think it IS possible.

 

I personally think that we should scare the possible victims because it would teach them how to handle a trade or what ever they would be doing, to prevent a scam.

 

I suppose this argument rides on the back of a notion of justice, so allow me to assert an argument by the great Philosopher John Rawls who basically wrote the book on our theory of justice. Rawl's believed that the principles of justice are derivative from what free and rational persons, concerned with their own interests, would propose in a truly equal state. The allure of this proposition is that for there to be a 'truly equal state' all participates must be ignorant of their place in society; they must be unaware of their social status, their class position, and their fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities. Given such a state of equality, a veil of ignorance, people would be unable to tilt the favor of the legal system to serve a particular societal niche, making the justice system truly just. Its my contention that such a consideration would derive the ideals of egalitarianism, where everyone is equal. This is the reason why humans, as a species, have an evolutionary incentive to punish the high earners unjustly. However, I digress into what I'm trying to establish.

If justice is defined in an egalitarian fashion, then it makes reasonable sense that corrections should be egalitarian as well. One may rightfully ask what does 'egalitarian corrections' imply, and I would respond with, “well that I'm unaware, but it would include a system where punishment is executed in a way that does not favor a particular class.” This is why I abhor giving non-donators harsher punishments.

You can read my other posts in different threads to view my arguments on the severity of punishment.

 

revanrose6 To answer your question in my own opinion, I don't believe that we can permanently stop crime on ECC but limit it of some sorts. Sure we do need harsher punishments for some things on ECC, but in my opinion some of the punishments are too harsh. (Not Going into my ban situation)

 

First of all, i want to congratulate everyone of you on ECC! I have copied this whole discussion and will use it as evidence the next time someone says something like "stupid gamers" Every single one of these posts were well written and very well thought out, including the research, especially on such a deep topic. 2nd, i have noticed that most trolling is done by builders, why, i'm not sure, but i do have an opinion. I think its because they aren't invested in the server yet. Same reason a person may steal in real life, they have nothing to lose. If they're a builder, chances are they don't have much money or many friends, so they say "Oh well" and switch servers. Who cares if they get banned? They certainly don't.

How would this affect the economy? Well, certainly some outcry. Andrew nerfed crops the other day and people are still whining. But lets think what would happen when we lose our lower class. Does thaat mean 1. No reason to be mayor-let me explain this one first. OK, so if new people are coming into ECC, then what happens to towns? VACANCY! Residents become mayors. but for what? The new players that need plots are either banned, or unbanned, yet not a person i would want in my town anyway. 2. Everyone would need to work- with no one bringing in essentials, what the builders get money from, then you'll start to see some people doing manual labor. We hire builders to do dirty work (i.e. place dirt, mine, farm, flatten land.) So if we have no one to do that, either we do it ourselves, or we go trying to find someone to do it for us. You'll either see presidents and lower placing dirt, or Ecoleaders doing it themselves because people felt to dignified to "work".

I feel like i'm getting off topic, but who gets the most money? Who are the richest people in ECC? I guarantee you they didn't get there by being complete jerks to people. Look at Original_Jackson he's pretty rich, but one of the nicest people i know. Look at the response when he comes online. Its HAPPINESS! So maybe lack of money inspires greed, trolling, and rudeness? that leads me to my next point...

Do we start off with any money? If so, the amount needs raised i think. Just like my first point, no money, no point. So why stay right? Maybe we could make a couple towns from the SERVER (not anyone else) specifically for builders. They will all be together then, owning property, with money, and means to survive, easy as that, they're invested now.

On the ban system. Maybe we should operate on a 3 strike your out rule for most crimes. 1st time, 1-3 day ban. 2nd time, 5-7 day ban. 3rd time, if you haven't learned your lesson yet, and they happen in a short period of time, temp-ban or perma-ban. I believe a harder justice system should be in place.

Thanks for hearing me out. I would like some important people to see this thread and give opinions so clou44 TheKDshowz_Kevin and Caitlin_Crime :)

 

To chocolatecheese1:

From what I gather:
- You are proposing that punishments be scaled based on the length of a player's stay in ECC; that the amount of dedication they put in and time spent playing the server should necessarily scale with the harshness of the punishment that they 'deserve', because it creates a selection between the "not-jerks".
- Builders, aka newcoming players, should not be given any leniency because by joining the server, they should accept and acknowledge that there is a risk for "doing bad".

From your emphasis on punishment towards builders, I gather that you are suggesting that justice be meted out unequally; that the trusted should be given more leniency as compared to those new to the server/(that builders be given more punishment than veterans; it all amounts to the same thing). Is that supposed to be fair? Is it just? I personally believe that if at all, it would have to be the other way around. ECC is supposed to be a community, albeit a competitive one, which implies that it should do its best to recruit more people and expand its participants, not the other way around. Builders should be warned and be accredited patience; as opposed to veterans that have betrayed the trust built for them. Do you punish a new-born babe for spilling milk, then simply sternly warn an adult for doing the same? Something just doesn't add up here. You don't look to the new guy at work to excel at his work and be perfect in his manners, etc. People are accorded responsibility based on the length of their stay, not "Get out of jail free" cards.

Why do you link donations with punishment? Sure, they are essential to the server itself, but I think it wholly unfair to try to use the argument "Increasing punishments will not reduce donations" as support. Are you trying to argue for "fair punishment" in favor of overall monetary support to the server, or for the betterment of the community itself? I feel like you waver between the two sides constantly throughout your piece.

revanrose6

I think the underlying assumption here is that a perfect society can be created, a society where there are no jerks or rule-breakers. All I have for this is a question: "Is there world peace today?" I'm sure history has a bit more experience in achieving that goal than ECC. It's kind of like reaching infinity. You can try to get there as much as you'd like, but despite your efforts, one needs to accept that compromises must be made. Of course, I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve our conditions, but crime is just a harsh reality that needs to be dealt with.

"How do we prevent scams?"

The problem is that both sides are not assuming enough risk. "If you get scammed, you get banned." The gambler finds it much easier to toss away their livelihood without their family standing behind him. Scams happen because the scammer does not have enough at risk. Why do contracts not take place with collateral at stake?

 

I apologize for the double-post in advance, but I wanted to split up what I saw as two different arguments in different sections.

First of all, I'd like to point out something striking in your posts. "...our lower class" Ranks do not make one person essentially 'better' than the other, it is merely a symbol of their economic success and ability. Builders are being heavily stereotyped here as irresponsible individuals that should not be treated equally with others.



..Frankly, i'm not sure what else you're trying to say that has any relevance to the topic on hand.

 

My personal opinion? By not punishing, you will not be able to prevent. Simple as that. We have kids here you look out for their self interest and try to see what they can get away with. If we do not punish it will just get worse.

We need to have certain rules/punishments/whatever and stick by them. I read through every ban/appeal post. (If I get to it before it is deleted). Every one. I'll be honest, it really does seem like the same people frequent that thread over and over again. And when I see "3 hour tempban", I ask myself, "Why bother?" I've already made my position on X-ray'ing clear in other threads.

I know the staff (including andrew) is trying to balance too harsh of a punishment that would cause a decline in players with the crimes, but do we really want those types of players playing? Perhaps if they took a longer time out to think about their actions, they would appreciate coming back more.

I think we have the best server. If they think they can do better elsewhere, let them try. They will be back. Until they learn, let the other servers deal with them.

My personal opinion is that to prevent the crime, we need to be more vigilant. Maybe it includes educating. I know I was shocked when I read the mod apps and everyone put "I would warn" or "I would talk to them" when the question was asked about someone who advertised another server. I thought advertising was a ban with no warning. <facetious>Maybe I need to be educated on what punishments fit what crimes so I can weight the risk/reward myself.</facetious>

With that being said, I disagree with your assessment on deterrence barely stopping real world crime, but that is another discussion.

 

When i said "lower class" i meant no offense, nor did i mean anyone is better than the other. I meant lower economic class. Obviously a, say president, will have more money than a builder, so the builder is lower in class.

What i was trying to point out is that, as a whole, builders, or others of lower class, are more likely to scam. Not as a whole, i agree. Builders do get a bad rep. I know some great builders and some horrible tycoons. But in general. The lower class commits the crime. I was also saying how if we're invested we're less likely to commit crimes, because as revanrose6 said, we think"Does the punishment I might receive outweigh the reward."
Builders have not much to lose, ecoleaders, on the other hand have days and days of time invested, along with the money to rank up.

The punishments need to be raised. Yes, i agree. Also, set certain punishments. We all know cussing at someone is wrong, no warning needed. We all know scamming someone is wrong, again, no warning needed. If a mistake is made and someone is unjustly banned, that's what ban-appeal is for. The punishment for some things, say trivial rules that they may not know, should be lowered. Now, if you've been playing for 2 years now, and you scam someone, obviously you knew better. Scamming, swearing, hacking, and lying are universally wrong, thats a ban. Other things, though, server specific rules, may not be know, so should have some leeway.

Let the players play somewhere else. That guy in the chat that's advertising? Tell him if it's such a good server, he can stay on it, then kick him. He thought that server was great enough to advertise about right? so let him stay there a few weeks. This is sorta the thing Emau was saying.

Minecraft may not be someones life. A 1 day ban is kinda pathetic. No one is really going to suffer missing a video game for 1 day. I like video games, but i dont think people will learn just by being banned for 1 day. They could either deal with it, or find a new server for a day. Not very effective. Instead, maybe a week ban, or 2 weeks would help.

 

Emau made some extremely good points here. I absolutely agree with him when people said they would warn the advertiser, or kick them, instead the clear answer was to ban. That really shocked me while going through mod apps.

 

Thanks for the kind words supergabe25 !
Here is my view on this.
I truly think that punishments are mixed up on this server. A perfect example of this was that I served a three hour ban for the destruction of 4 blocks and 2 seeds accidentally, but, someone who grieved a mods own personal town, only served a two hour. I am not complaining I am just stating that the severity of punishments are at the mods choice.
I do agree that maybe ones who grief need to have a slightly harsher punishment, so they know if they are banned for grief as a builder, this will be UNEXCEPTABLE as a higher rank.

I also would like to say I believe in second chances. There are some people who have served account resets, permanent bans, etc. but have come back and are perfect ECC citizens, while I am all for these people coming back I believe they need to be watched like hawks. If they go back to their actions, they are done, sorry to say.

 

I will tell you what I think the best way to prevent crime on ECC

1) Near Zero Tolerance
The tolerance shown on this server for repeat offenders is completely unacceptable. People are allowed to commit the same crime, or even different crimes multiple times with relatively small or even nonexistent punishments. 3 hour temp ban, 24 hour temp ban, 3 day temp ban, even the 1 week temp ban (RARELY handed out) are not enough.

2) Make punishments more visible
a)Don't do it in a PM (I don't care who the player is and how big of a whiner or how much of a persecution complex he has). There is nothing that frustrates me more as a player to see a violation of the rules committed and then from my perspective, zero action taken. This happens and is happening all to often lately. I understand that there are cases where an individual isn't responding in a global to messages meant for them and a PM is needed. But that is a rare occasion. What I am talking about is offender getting private counseling out of the public view after a rules violation.

b)Don't do it in PM's to Andrew. If you have committed such a serious offense that it requires a PM to AKM to get your player status reinstated, than that seems like a pretty important thing for the community to see and witness and be able to reference. Even if initially unsuccessful. Transparency for the community is the cornerstone of crime deterrence.

3) Use different means of punishment to find which are most effective
I understand that there are inherent limitations in the types of punishments that Moderators, Supermoderators, and GameAdmins can hand out. They are the ones tasked with dealing with the punishments. From what I can tell the only means of punishment they have is varying lengths of temp bans. And frankly, those temp bans just don't work nearly well enough. That can be proven by the amount of rules that are still broken by the same people over and over. Even after month long "temp bans" they come back and still do that same stupid stuff, effecting the community and individuals in a negative fashion. What I would like to see is more fines inflicted in individuals that perpetuate rule breaking. I understand that as it is right now, none of the ranks responsible for doling out punishment have that ability, I should hope that could be rectified. This is an economy server. C.R.E.A.M. Cash Rules Everything Around Me Dolla Dolla Bills ya'll. So why are just doling temporal punishments instead of the more obvious MONETARY punishments? From my perspective, even forfeiture of property seems like a great deterrent.

Great thread want to participate more but I gotta go to work. I'll keep reading as I haven't even made it through the entire thread yet, I just wanted to respond to Rev's posited question.

-d

p.s. i know rev's point was that she wants to know how to prevent and not punish but from my perspective the best way to prevent them to punish them in these fashions for the given reasons