?

Would you like to see this implemented into the server?

  1. yes

    37.5%
  2. no

    50.0%
  3. not sure, would need more info on how it'd work

    12.5%
  1. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    Suggestion:
    Insert a price floor for exp (selling exp to the server). This would be done one of two ways: (excuse me, i'm not terribly knowledgeable about the under-workings of the server)
    1. Insert the command: /sell exp amount This would work similar to other /sell commands; andrew would be able to set a variable price based on the current market conditions.
    2. Create a sign(s) in /warp expshop that buys exp. This would work similar how to enchanting works now. You would be deducted 100, 1000 exp w/e and receive the value that andrew sets the sign to pay.

    The price i'd suggest if it were up to me would probably be about $750/1000 exp. This would be a mid ground between $500 (current) and $1000 (1$/1exp ratio) and allow andrew to judge how the economy is affected before totally jumping to 1/1 exp/$ and rapidly inflating the ecd.

    Reason:
    The exp market is not doing well at the moment. With this being implemented, It wouldn't necessarily be for users to sell their exp to the server forever. This would bring the buying price of exp up in shops to marginally higher than ther server similar to diamonds are usually bought at $25.50 vs $25 to the server (they would have to or no one would sell to them) and as a result, cause exp to cost more.

    Any Other Information:
    Thought pretty hard about the macroeconomics side this but I could wrong somewhere in there. let me know if you notice a hole in my thinking.
    Also this is a bit of a strech as there is little correlation now, but a rise in exp prices will also probably cause the cost of max tools to rise as well. I believe this to be a good thing, but I would appreciate all of your input.


    Link To This Plugin/Is this a custom addition?:
    99% sure we can implement this with what we've got.
     
    #1 WhiteSoxFan123, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  2. UnitedStates2 Builder
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    I'd much rather keep the EXP market in the hands of the players. We don't need the server printing money to keep the EXP market in check. That just reduces the amount of money that can be printed in other areas. I'd rather go for a demand based solution such as adding more ways to spend EXP - https://www.ecocitycraft.com/forum/threads/suggestion-add-more-ways-to-spend-exp.143435/ - I believe the problem lies with demand, not supply.
     
    #2 UnitedStates2, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  3. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    This would raise the demand, as there would be a higher quantity demanded by shop owners and therefore users and the price would also rise (the definition of a rise in demand) Also I checked out that other suggestion. I just don't feel it would generate as much interest and wouldn't cause a large enough change to really be worth noting.
     
    #3 WhiteSoxFan123, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  4. UnitedStates2 Builder
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    Firstly, when printing money - All you're doing is just decreasing the ability for the server to create money - The administration will notice that more money is being created, so they'll try to limit it by taking more out in other areas - I don't want more money being taken out when there's a way around that - All it just does it hurt the economy.

    If you took a look at mine and @Mission001's proposals, they offer a vast amount of different ways to spend EXP - Something that would revive the EXP market while not printing any more money.
     
    #4 UnitedStates2, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  5. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    Ok where should I start, with why your arguement is not valid or why it's not sound. We'll attack why we can't accept it first. What you just tried to employ by hinting that staff would try to reduce money in other areas is referred to as a "slippery slope" fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope have a read). Now, back to the economics side of this. The point of a price floor isn't to "print money." In the real world the government institutes a price on business entities saying they have to charge atlest $x ammount for something or they will be greatly fined come tax season :). Obviously ECC couldn't just tell all the shop owners they have buy for at least whatever amount. It would way to hard to regulate and not practical. This would essentially for shop owners to buy some small amount higher than the server (again think about how diamonds work) and then they would obviously sell for more. We never decrease any supply or "print any money" just give the shop owners a real good incentive on why they should (essentially have to) buy exp for more.
     
  6. UnitedStates2 Builder
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    A slippery slope fallacy is when someone makes states a chain of events without provide reasoning of why that would happen - I've already provided reasoning by saying that the administration tries to keep the amount of money printed under control to in effect, reduce inflation. Things like that have been stated many times in many threads.

    Yes, obviously price controls would be impractical and unrealistic on ECC, however you're suggesting to print money to upkeep the market, while we can do exactly just that without increasing the money supply - And as I've stated before, the administration will naturally try to take more money out, again, hurting the economy - And the administration might be more reluctant in creating money than they would without all the extra money creation - And I'd much rather have money be created in areas where it's more needed and there's no other alternative than in this area where there IS an alternative. There's repercussions with increasing the money supply, while there's absolutely none with increasing the incentive to buy and spend EXP.
     
    #6 UnitedStates2, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  7. LJKAzrael Freelancer | Ikigai
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    EXP is useless to me. I just store it in signs, as I am sure many other players do. If this were implemented, I would break the signs and /sell hand. I am certain many would follow suit. I would still have no incentive to buy or sell EXP at this higher price; it would still be useless. I would just continue to /sell it with my mined goods, as many others would. This is just another way of printing money into the economy.

    -1

    EDIT: So useless that I am making max wood, stone, iron, and gold pickaxes. Why not?
     
    #7 LJKAzrael, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  8. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    It has come to my attention that not all users understand the idea behind a price floor, how they work in real life, and how they would work in game so I will edit my original post to make that more clear. Sorry about this confusion.
     
  9. LJKAzrael Freelancer | Ikigai
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    Why force the price of EXP to rise? What does this accomplish (other than printing money)? "The exp market is not doing well at the moment." So we should force the price to go up? Is the price of what it is selling for the only consideration for when the market is doing well? Why not raise the price to $5 per orb? It would be doing better than ever then.
     
  10. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    So, price floors. They can be a tough concept to wrap your mind around. Luckily i'm here to put them into layman's terms for you. I will also include a link below if you would like more info. A price floor is where the governing body in any economic institution places a minimum price for some good. Now, I use the word minimum cautiously as this can be misconstrued as in this case it would refer the smallest amounts that shops would essentially be forced to buy for. In the real world, price floors are usually instilled to place a minimum price on selling something. Now I'll show an example on how this would work. At the moment station22 currently buys exp for $565/1000 exp. If we were to put a price floor of $750/1000, the owner of station22 would have 2 choices. He/She could either: keep his price at $565/1000 and very few if any would sell exp to him, or he could raise it to say, $775/set. Now the owner of station22 also sells exp (I don't know the exact price but I will assume it is below $775/set). He will, in response, raise his selling price as well to ensure he is still making a profit, as any good business entity should. Now as a user how has 10,000 exp to sell, you could either do /sell hand and receive $7500 or you could go to station22 (or any station for that matter as they will all have to update prices) and sell it for $7750. We employ the same concept with diamonds which are typically bought for $25.50 from users and $25 to the server.

    In Response to "This will just print money" @UnitedStates2 @LJKAzrael : I fall back to my diamond example, you could print money, or you could sell it on the user market for more which is what users (in all economic projections you assume your users are rational otherwise it would be impossible to predict what would happen with any accuracy) typically do.

    In Response to "Why?:" @LJKAzrael This would improve the cash flows of business entities (shops). There is a direct correlation between a raise in cash flows and an increase net income (profits after subtracting all expenses). I can provide multiple studies to back this statement up if you'd like. So, by doing this we'd be helping the economic market for exp, but also possibly the value of spawn shops as the would yield a higher net income. This is only possible as I have minimal evidence to back up such a claim, but if asked thats my prediction as to what would happen.

    Link to more info on price floors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor
     
    #10 WhiteSoxFan123, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  11. UnitedStates2 Builder
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    I don't think you're understanding this - Firstly, you're printing money - That should be avoided when there's other alternatives. Secondly, this won't have much as an effect on the server, as your just setting a price FLOOR - How low the price can go, instead of actually fixing the EXP and sending the price up really - Sure, it may increase the price a little, but it won't really increase the price to the point where it's a robust market again. We should be going for demand-based solutions.

    This does nothing to solve the stagnant EXP market and pointlessly prints money - That's why I'm against this.
     
    #11 UnitedStates2, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  12. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    I know your a smart guy, which is why it floors me how you can possibly be missing this. The point of this not to sell you exp to the sever, it is to sell it on the player market at higher price. now, if you wanted to argue (as this is how real markets typically exist) that we install a combination of several things to solve the exp crisis, such as a price floor as well as something along the lines of your suggestion, that would allow ideal, but from my perspective, some change is better than none. If you wanted to insert a price floor but then after that try to increase demand for exp, to be higher than this floor, essentially rendering it useless, that would be fine. the price floor would somewhat of a safety net for exp sellers as even if the market crashes, it will never dip below that floor.
     
    #12 WhiteSoxFan123, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  13. UnitedStates2 Builder
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    I don't see the market dipping any lower, which is why I think it's unneeded. EXP still is a potential player market, and I don't see why a price floor is needed, especially when there's still a player market for it. If you want a combination of the two, sure, go ahead. But I don't see the real need for a price floor.
     
  14. WhiteSoxFan123 Builder
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    I think this would just help jump-start the process in reviving the exp market; this is not the only thing needed, but as I've said before, something is better than something, and this will have a greater effect quicker than the items mentioned in your post
     
  15. goblizz The One and Only
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    Price floors are generally implemented when there is a surplus of a product (in real life, it's generally used to protect farmers and agriculture). The thing is here, the EXP market itself is inherently stable. There's no real surplus sitting in signs. People aren't gaining 100,000+ EXP on a daily basis, and if they do, it's very likely there is a buyer willing to purchase it for one reason or another. Quite honestly, this is probably the most stable I have seen the EXP market in a long time. This leads to the EXP market price is cyclical and bouncing due to changes of supply and demand - translating to a price range of around $500 - $750 per set.

    With this suggestion, a price floor would benefit in the short run; all the EXP would have an outlet from shops, mining, and fishing. But, over the long run (as I believe @UnitedStates2 mentioned somewhere), it will only print money after that. If you think about it, once the EXP market stabilizes from the initial surge of the outflow, it will become like the diamond market; shops will only buy at small markups and lose business due to the convenience of the sell signs. Oh, then they just have to be competitive! Convenience is key, and I'll tell you that some people wouldn't be interested in spending the extra minute to go to a shop when they can warp to a server sign. Efficiency is the game.

    I think United really hit the nail on the head here. It just doesn't make sense for a supply-side solution to be used for a demand-side problem. I'd rather see the implementation of more uses and ways to spend EXP. Why? Once people find more uses for EXP, the demand curve will shift, increasing the need for supply, and in turn driving up the price. Fixing it on the other side will do the same effect, with fewer opportunity costs than a price floor would have.

    TL;DR: EXP outlets target the demand side, a price floor targets the supply side. Targeting demand will have less costs than a price floor, and would be more reasonable to implement.
     
    #15 goblizz, Feb 9, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
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    Instead of introducing a price floor you should remove a few XP faucets, and maybe introduce more XP sinks.

    The current faucets are 1, fishing; 2, mining; and 3, killing mobs.
    In order of magnitude it's 1, mining; 2, fishing; and 3, killing mobs.

    Almost everyone mines. This is arguably the most destructive faucet for the XP market. It should be blocked. You shouldn't obtain XP from mining.
    Fishing. Fishing doesn't make much money. And XP is just a little bit extra, and I understand nobody wants to make less money. Understandably so. So to counteract the lack of XP, you might want to edit the fish prices to be higher (which will also make the star rod worthwhile. Win win, I'd say.)

    And last but not least, killing mobs. This is the faucet we should use. Right now practically the only way to kill mobs is at a spawner. And this can only happen in the mining world. You have to find and set up a good spawner. While you can make a large amount of XP from a spawner. 1 person at a spawner still introduces less XP than 30 people mining. And to make things better, spawners can be destroyed. It's a faucet that can be actively controlled by the playerbase. And this is good.
     
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